This is a plea for help. Our RV is broken. As I write this, two of our RV slideouts won’t move. Our RV has four slides. Two of our RV slideouts won’t move. As a quick reference to anyone who might have an idea about a solution, we have a 2008 Tiffin Bus on a Tiffin Power Glide Chassis. The model is a 40 QRP. I love it (except for the last four days).
Thanks for the help
Thank you for all your responses, here in the comments, on Facebook, and via email. I even had a phone call from a friend in Australia who is both a mechanical and electrical engineer. Via the numerous suggestions, I found the problem and can make the repair. Right now we are living large. Part of testing the results was to extend our slides. The problem was a slideout solenoid. We figured it out just before sunset last night.
It isn’t fixed correctly yet but I am going to replace some parts (and I know what parts to replace). The original story continues after this paragraph. The diagnosis is near the end of the story.
We are cramped
We are cramped. We are way more cramped than we want to be. So far our RV slideouts have been broken for almost four days. This failure is totally consuming all my brain power and I am not thinking about anything else. Writing this post is helping to vent my frustration and organize my troubleshooting thoughts. Maybe someone has a solution or an idea of where I might look for a solution.
A problem I don’t know how to fix
Usually, when I write about something technical, I have a solution. Or at least I know how to fix whatever is broken. Not this time. I still have the problem, and I don’t know how to fix it. We can still drive, but when we are stopped the issue is constantly on my mind. What is wrong? What failed? Why did two RV slideouts fail at the same time? How are the two broken RV slideouts related? What caused the failure?
Previous RV slideout issues
Until now, we have only had only two issues with our RV slideouts. The first one was mechanical. A bolt broke and one of our slideouts would retract on one side but would not retract on the other side. This failure was fixed by replacing the broken bolt. The other failure was that one of our interior covers was sticky and not working correctly. The slide worked fine but the cover didn’t properly move and if we continued to move the slide it would have pinched the cover and it would have been damaged.
Our RV slideouts
In our living room (and in our bedroom) we have what I call opposing slides. When both slides are extended, one slide extends to the driver’s side, and opposite to that slide we have a slide that extends to the passenger side. This makes our living area floor space about eight feet wide. The distance between the walls is almost thirteen feet. When both of these slides are retracted the distance between the walls is eight feet. An extra five feet between the walls makes our living area great. These slideout room extensions make RV living very comfortable.
What started the problem?
It may or may not be related but our problem started with or at least was first identified after an oil change in Idaho Falls. Yes, I know the last story in my blog was about the Titan Missile Museum in Tucson. This story brings you up to our current position in Helena Montana where we are real-time troubleshooting our RV slideout failures. I will jump back to stories about our travels northbound through Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and Idaho. I have some great stories and places to share. When I fix my RV slideout problem I will edit this story about what failed and how we fixed it so as not to leave you guessing.
Anyway, we went to a diesel engine shop in Idaho Falls to get the engine oil and fuel filters changed. While there I had a failure in headwork (some people call it a cramp in their brain). Anyway, I let the mechanic drive the RV into and back out of the shop without my supervision. I guess I let down my usual vigilance because, during our previous repair, I also let the mechanics drive the RV because they were far more qualified than I was to diagnose the issues. Here is a link to that story the part about letting the mechanic drive my RV is in the middle of a long story about my batteries. Henderson’s
An excuse associated with this oil change stop and my poor headwork was that we didn’t know where we were going to spend the night. Allowing the mechanic to drive the RV would free up some time so we could investigate places to spend the night. Plus we were hungry and needed to get some food while the oil change was being done. Since the RV was being worked on, we couldn’t get lunch inside our RV. Anyway, I will write about that other related stuff when I get back to stories about travel. Today’s subject is my RV slideout failures.
They worked fine until they didn’t work
Everything worked the night before, just like they have worked every campground (except as noted above) until they didn’t work. When it came to the step in the checklist to extend the RV slideouts Tami pushed the button to open the second bedroom slide and nothing happened. While Tami is inside pushing the buttons and making sure the RV slideouts don’t hit anything on the inside I am watching on the outside and making sure the RV slideouts don’t hit anything on the outside. Sometimes there is nothing to hit… I am outside anyway… It is according to our checklist.
Checklist, step by step
We try to do everything according to the checklist the same way every time. This way we get all the steps done, in order, step by step, with nothing missed. I am not sure why we extend or retract our slide rooms in this order, but it has worked every time we moved for the last six years. We always extend the driver’s-side bedroom slide, then the passenger-side bedroom slide followed by the passenger-side kitchen slide followed by the driver’s-side living room slide.
After the bedroom slide didn’t work and a pause to collect our thoughts, we then went on to extend the passenger side kitchen slide leaving the bedroom slide retracted. The kitchen slide worked perfectly. Then Tami pushed the button on the living room slide. Nothing.
Two electric slides and two hydraulic slides
The two slides that failed to work were the electric slide rooms. Both of the hydraulic slideouts worked fine. At this point, I was thinking that the problem would be easy (easier) to solve. At least I didn’t have a hydraulic leak or a hydraulic pump issue. I don’t know why my RV has two electric slides and two hydraulic slides. I have a friend that has a similar Tiffin RV that has three electric slides and one hydraulic slide.
So what could be related to our two electric slides and how could the problem possibly be related to an oil change? Frankly, the oil change couldn’t possibly be related or could it be? Why do I have a problem with the electric slides and not all the slides? I still don’t know the answers to these questions. I was surprised however to find out that the mechanic pushed a button next to my front door that he failed to return to the original position. Could this be related to the problem? I don’t know.
What the mechanic did
The first button that I know was pushed was my electric step control button. When this button is pressed the steps move up and down every time you open or close the door. The way this may be relative is that it is associated with the ignition key position. Regardless of the step control button position, when the door is shut, the steps retract when the ignition key is in any position other than off. It is not a big deal that the button was pushed and we would never had known had he returned it to the original position.
The second button that may have been pressed is the battery disconnect. Perhaps the mechanic turned off the battery. This button makes a partial disconnect of the house battery. Sometimes this button is called a salesman switch. Salesmen on RV lots are instructed to press this button to disable drains on the house battery.
The reason that the salesmen switch could be involved is that it is right next to the slide solenoid. The steel nut in the upper corner of this next picture is the source of power for both the salesman switch relay (in the next picture) and the slide solenoid. Really it couldn’t possibly be related but I am still trying to establish relationships about what might be involved. We never use either of these buttons.
I quizzed the mechanic about what buttons he pushed and he admitted to pressing the step controller switch but denied using the battery disconnect. He also said the oil change and fuel filter change went normally without any issues.
Learning about the problem
I spent that evening trying to learn about the problem. I needed to read enough to figure out at least some of the possible failure points. The first lead to what might be the problem is called the ignition interlock solenoid. Vince Sheetz on Facebook suggested that this may be the issue. He has been spot-on with lots of other fixes in the past and this may be related. Facebook link Vince Sheetz
The second possible failure point was the charging solenoid and the slideout solenoid. This was identified by John and Sharon on their blog On the Road of Retirement. The link is directly to his post on the subject.
Troubleshooting experts
I have a couple more links to share with you and maybe this will turn out to be an ace up my sleeve. The first one is from Darren who is a mobile RV mechanic. we met Darren in the far northwest corner of Washinton State. What makes me mention Darren is that he repairs RVs every day. He doesn’t yet know I have a problem. But he will soon.
The thing that makes Darren special is that he shares his knowledge openly on Youtube. I searched his collection from front to back and even though he has lots of videos about failed RV slideouts I can’t find one that is exactly the same as my failure. Anyway, Darren is an RV tech that I would trust. Too bad he isn’t following me around in my RV fixing the things that fail or that I break. I have learned a lot about troubleshooting by watching Darren’s videos
Here is a link to Darren’s website and Youtube channel. At the bottom of this post, I will include a short video from Darren that will give you an idea about how he teaches about RV problems on Youtube. My RV Works & My RV Works – Youtube
The second expert is a friend we met more than five years ago in Lake Havasu Arizona. Brian makes a lot of videos and each is great. Brian is a do-it-yourself RV expert. Here is a link to his blog and Youtube channel. RV with Tito & RV with Tito – Youtube
If you are interested in RVs I highly recommend these two experts.
What is a solenoid? What is a relay?
A solenoid is a mechanical remote control switch. The switch changes position based on creating an electromagnetic field that moves a contactor. Electricity flows through a solenoid when the magnetic field moves the contactor in essence turning on the switch. The solenoids I am describing are normally open, meaning that when power is removed from the electromagnet then the contactor is spring-loaded to an open position and thus the switch is turned off. Solenoids can be normally open, like what I am describing, or normally closed, meaning that the switch is on unless a magnetic field is established.
Functionally a relay is the same as a solenoid it too is a remote control switch.
Call Tiffin to help troubleshoot
The next morning I called the Tiffin helpline and asked for Don Boyd even though I knew that he was retired. Don helped me countless times in the last few years. He was a tireless worker and could almost always completely answer my questions. Michael, his replacement zeroed in on the slide-out solenoid as the probable problem and while on the phone decided that the ignition interlock was working.
What is a circuit breaker?
In the above picture, the small square cubes are Eaton Shortstop circuit breakers. If too much current goes through them they heat up and the circuit breaker opens and stops the current flow. When the current stops flowing they cool down and reconnect the load allowing the current to flow. When I checked the voltage on these circuit breakers they always had voltage (potential current) or didn’t have voltage depending on if the source was switched on.
Interlocks?
There are a couple of interlocks that prevent you from opening the slideouts. The logic really doesn’t make sense to me. Why would the ignition key need to be on so that I could operate my slideouts? Half of my slideouts work with the ignition key off and the other half (the slideouts that have failed) require the key to be on.
Furthermore, why does the key need to be on to operate my leveling jacks? I would think that the intent of the ignition key would be to start the engine and shouldn’t have anything to do with jacks or slideouts. If anything, logic dictates that my jacks and slides should require the ignition key to be off — not on.
Michael says that my ignition interlock is working fine because when I turn the key on, my instrument panel lights up, the backup camera works and other things on the instrument panel work.
Parking brakes and transmission
A couple of other ideas that I don’t have an answer to are the possibility that the transmission and parking brakes have an influence on RV slideout operation. Perhaps these work through the ignition interlock solenoid? If a sensor on the transmission was stuck in gear would this interrupt the operation of my RV slideouts? Where is the ignition interlock solenoid located anyway?
All these interlocks make me think that some government rule is involved. It wouldn’t be the first government rule that when implemented would create chaos where there wasn’t any issue before the rule was issued.
RV slideout solenoids
Michael had me focus on the RV slideout solenoid. Power from the house battery flows through the slideout solenoid and then through some automatic reset circuit breakers (described above) to the slideout switch (for the bedroom slide) and to the Power Gear slideout module (for the living room slide). This solenoid stops power by opening unless the ignition key is turned to the on position.
Testing to find out what works
Since my problem is electrical, the should be identified by finding where the voltage is and where voltage should be and may be missing.
Test Light
The easiest tool to test for voltage is a test light. This tool has a long electrical cord and an alligator clamp at the end.
Testing by operation
Some of the functions of the ignition interlock solenoid work and I can start the engine. Does this mean that my ignition interlock solenoid is working? If I could find it, I could measure the voltage and find out what happens when I turn the key on and off. So far, with our broken RV slideouts we have driven 280 miles on our way to Alaska and all things associated with running the engine seems to work fine.
When I measure the voltage before and after the battery disconnect solenoid I get the same voltage unless I turn the salesman switch off and then I get no voltage. So this works and so does my salesmen switch.
RV slideout solenoid
When I measure the voltage at the RV slideout solenoid I get a good voltage reading after this solenoid is on. There is no voltage on the load side when the solenoid is off.
Downstream from the RV slideout solenoid, I have four two automatically resetting circuit breakers. Using my voltmeter in the Ohm position I can tell that these circuit breakers are closed meaning that they can transfer electricity correctly.
I also measured electricity entering the Power Gear RV slideout controller in front of the coach. When the solenoid is closed, this location also has power.
I also have electricity at the slide room control switch for the front slide when the solenoid is on.
I pulled the control switch out of the wall for the rear slide and noted that the wire sizes were bigger than the wire sizes for the front. My conclusion is that this switch is directly connected to the motor without an intermediate controller. Instead of three wires like the front slide switch, this switch has four wires. I am not yet sure how it works. Before the end of tomorrow, I will have the answer.
Other things I have tried
Tapping the RV slide control solenoid with a hammer. Some of the plastic on the solenoid is broken but it must have been broken a long time ago. Perhaps someone previously tried to fix it with a hammer. One of my previous mentors had a saying that if your only tool is a hammer, all of your problems look like nails.
Cycling the ignition key several times. Re-selecting the neutral position on the transmission (we don’t have a park position). Selecting the air brake toggle on and off. Turning all the electrical power off to the RV and then trying the slides with only DC power from the battery without any other electrical source. This means that I tried to use the slideouts with the inverter completely off. When I turned it back on I tried it again. Still, nothing worked.
I also tried the RV slideout room switches without the ignition switch on. I am running out of things to try.
What was the problem?
Things are better now that I have found the problem. So a permanent fix is on the horizon. The way I found the problem was by using the big red jumper wire in the previous picture.
My problem is that my RV slideout solenoid and automatic resetting circuit breaker worked fine until there was a load. So by bypassing the solenoid and the circuit breaker (the big red wire in the above picture), I was able to extend the slides.
It was very confusing because when I read the voltages without a load the automatically resetting circuit breaker had already reset. So when I checked it with a meter everything was working. Then as soon as I wanted to use the slide they would disconnect.
So my new jumper cable bypassed the malfunction and the slides worked… just like normal.
The obvious long-term and correct repair will be to replace the RV slideout solenoid and circuit breaker then everything will work as Tiffin designed it.
Crazy wiring
While replacing the solenoid I came across some strange wiring. It was only visible after I removed the solenoid.
The white wire that is on the same terminal as the blue wire then carries the voltage to another destination. Without careful study of the wiring diagram, I can’t tell what the white wire then powers. The pink wires complete the connection and allow the current to flow through the coil and activate the solenoid. So far I understand everything. What I don’t understand is the red wire that turns white under some black heat shrink.
This red wire would create a short circuit around the load (the solenoid is the load) and if there is not some other load on the pink wires this short circuit should either trip a circuit breaker or burn out a fuse. At a minimum, this red wire should bypass the solenoid. I don’t know how it ever worked wired like this.
New solenoid
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Links
It doesn’t have anything to do with this post, but here is a link to a Youtube video by Darren explaining how a battery works. My RV Works RV Battery Analogy Video
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Don’t you have a mechanical crank you can use when this happens?
It might take an hour, but I think I could crank the big one in. I am not sure about the small bedroom slide. There must be some way to make that happen.
I won’t send them out mechanically but just in case, I might figure out a way to retract them.
Troubleshooting your electrical issues by isolating components, one at a time, either by temporarily jumping the contacts, or running a wire directly from the battery to the individual motor…process of elimination until you find the issues.
Sounds simple, and obvious, but is there a burnt fuse? I had an issue with my landing gear and couldn’t find the problem to save my life… that is until I traced the wires and found a blown inline fuse that was zip-tied and hidden in a wire bundle… before that, I was able to get the motor to work by running a jumper wire directly to the motor from the battery. Then I knew it wasn’t the motor, but something along the circuit. I then checked each of the components, switches, and solenoids by bypassing them until I found the culprit (fuse).
Also, can you operate your slides manually at least to get some utility while you troubleshoot? Though much simpler, my rig has a hand crank capability. It’s hard, but it is possible to extend the slides by rotating the gearbox by hand. Not optimal, but I’ve done it. And provides some utility.
Anyway, best of luck.
Thanks, Burt. I think I am doing everything correctly. I don’t know enough about the system design to say for certain.
Even when I get to the very front end of the RV I still have good voltage with the solenoid or when jumping past the solenoid. But having voltage doesn’t seem to be enough. I need to find the common failure point for both slides.
I don’t want to extend them manually. I am saving that for a real failure that won’t allow me to move the RV. I’m not even sure I can extend them manually. And I have never retracted them manually. I don’t want to go there.
I hear ya.
Frustrating I know. I basically had to run new wires from my battery to the motor. To see if that worked, then I traced the wires back to each connection. Then attach the jumper there followed by checking to see if the motor still worked. Finally, I found the connection where the motor no longer worked.
Then traced forward to locate the bad connection. I had to remove and unwrap about 4 feet of wiring to locate what turned out to be a blown hidden inline fuse.
The other way might be to replace components one at a time. That will be expensive.
You might remove them and find an auto-electric shop that can bench-test your relays/solenoids. Don’t know if they even have those anymore…
Burt
Burt, you were a great help. I have had multiple conversations that helped from very qualified engineers.
I still don’t understand how “automatically resetting” circuit breakers are a good thing. I always told my students that if a circuit breaker pops it was a good thing and was protecting them from a fire. I didn’t like resetting a circuit breaker in flight…unless I pulled it.
Scott
So a permanent fix is on the horizon. My problem is that my solenoid and automatic resetting circuit breaker worked fine until there was a load. Then as soon as I wanted to use the slide they would disconnect. As soon as I removed the load everything was fine.
So what I did was make a jumper cable long enough to bypass the malfunction and the slides worked… just like normal.
I will still have to replace the broken parts. But we are back to living large in our 400 square feet. I just hope that there is nothing else wrong that I don’t know about, yet.
Scott
Have you tried jumping the solenoids?
I am sure you have tested that they have power and that the solenoid activation power, from switches, is working.
Jumping the solenoid was the key troubleshooting step to finding the problem.
Before I jumped the solenoid and measured the voltage at each location without a load every reading was fine. When I jumped the solenoids then not only was the voltage present but when I activated the slide switch the slides worked.
Thanks for encouraging me with this comment. I really try not to change things until I know what is wrong. But doing this led me to identify the problem.
Ah yes, ” Failure under load… ” I recall that as being a thing…. now that you mention it… El-oh-el…
Burt
Wow! Hope you find out the cause soon. We are headed for the Panama Cannel back home on the 11th of May. We will be in Mesa this winter.
What I can’t get past is the fact that two motors are not working. I need to find some thing that might have inhibited both motors at the same time.
Check the negative side of your circuits too…..a broken or corroded ground common to both systems would give you just such a failure mode. (Even better, if said problematic ground were to be discovered in the near vicinity of where your mechanic had last worked in-process of the oil and filter change….just sayin’!!!)
Lee has already said what I came here to say. A test light is immensely helpful in finding where power is and where it isn’t with a quick touch
Lee and SlimShady, these are really good points and they are so hard to diagnose. I used a test light and edited the text above to include it.
Test lights are so fast. The only time they lead you to a false answer is when they light up on less than full voltage.
Scott,
Not much help, but remember that checklist!
Never do any mechanical action w/o disconnecting ALL POWER AC & DC.
I’m sure you’ve done the following but here are some thoughts:
If no results yet, use an amp meter on the power leg of the switch (assuming 12v @ switch). Any current draw (even small) would show the contactor path is good but it’s failing.
No current says open between switch & motor or contactor.
The other thing is finding if the slides share a common ground that somehow is open. Finding the motor & tracking the wires might also help.
Using a 12v test probe might allow you to track things in the rat’s nest by probing thru the insulation.
Just some things to consider. But make sure you disconnect all ac & dc power if you manually crank the slides in/out.
Tom
I’m sure you realize you’re lucky the slides are stuck in rather than out.
I have struggled as an inexperienced RV’r with my slides and can’t imagine going through the process you’ve documented but I have one very basic question: what about the emergency brake? Could there be a connection between having the break on that would trigger an electrical disruption for the slide?
I’d love to hear your solution regardless. Thank you. And good luck.
I have found the problem so now I just have to find the parts and put everything that I have torn apart back together.
I cycled the parking brakes and eliminated them from the possible failure points. Interesting that this big RV doesn’t have an emergency brake. It is like a big truck and has brakes that either work or when they fail, they fail to a full stop position clamping the brakes hard (in the back).
Sorry to hear about your slide issues. I’m guessing since they are electric slides you have been tracing wires and power flow.
Too bad you are not close to Darren, he could make a video of it.
Does your rig have a wiring diagram you can reference? My dad use to tell me wiring issues were the hardest thing to troubleshoot. Mine is since my rig is so old and it has had people doing a few jury rigging jobs.
I usually try chasing one wire at a time and say a few words when everything is in harnesses.
Anyway, I agree with Lee. One of my issues was a bad ground that was corroded.
Also don’t get too caught up about the oil change. Good thing to check it out but it may not be related at all.
I have gone down many a rabbit hole before just to find out I missed the simplest things.
Good luck.
I am glad you found a work around to solve the issue. I was praying and pulling for you. I was totally helpless to contribute a possible solution. I know you are breathing a sigh of relief.
Sorry for your issues, we have a 2009 Tiffin Bus so it is very similar to yours.
I have issues mainly on the hydraulic side sometimes not working and the only thing we have found is low voltage when it does not seem to work.
This really does not make sense, but it is that or some other demon.
If you can post your jumper that would be helpful.
Slides always seem to be such a pain!!
I also have a 2008 Allegro Bus. The rear bedroom slide has a bolt cover to wrench in or out the bedroom slide. The access gets a little tight, but it is easy with a cordless impact driver. Just don’t overtighten it, you will shear off the cotter pin holding it on. In some regards, the back is easier to bring in and out manually.
I would love to see pictures. Are you talking about the one under the bed? Just taking the “storage” out from there would be an undertaking.
Scott, great troubleshooting, and congrats on finding the gremlin.
Did you throw away the red/white wire that jumped the solenoid terminals? If not, cut it open and I bet you find a diode in it. I can see in your pic a small cylindrical bulge right in the middle. And you’re right, the solenoid could absolutely not have worked if that were a solid wire. Why a diode? Commonly used with relays/solenoids — it’s called a “flyback diode”. Really. Google it.
It enables instantaneous collapse of the solenoid coil electric field after de-energization to prevent contact arcing. If it is a diode, I’d recommend reinstalling it. Also, try to find the wiring diagram for the slide power system and you’ll probably see a diode across the solenoid terminals. This would reassure you that it really does belong there and wasn’t a backyard mechanic job.
Also, I didn’t see it in your write-up, but did you move your “diagnostic jumper” (awesome technique) to the solenoid side of the 50A CB to see if it really was bad? If you still have it, might want to try sticking it in the circuit and checking. If it works, you now have a spare 50A CB. You then know your only problem was the solenoid. But a solenoid is only an “off/on switch” How could it fail to function under load? Easy. Badly corroded or pitted contacts limit current flow. Corroded solenoid contacts are common in these non-climate-controlled areas of our RVs. I rebuilt the battery boost solenoid in mine last year (cause I was too cheap to buy a new one, and I love a challenge). Contacts were so badly corroded there was zero contact/current flow. Works like a champ now.
Happy travels,
Lou S.
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Thanks for your blog post. We also have a 2008 QRP and this afternoon our slides in the bedroom won’t go out. We will definitely be checking the solenoid.