You don’t want a leak from your RV black tank. Of all the catastrophic RV problems you may have, a leak from your RV black tank is one of the worst problems. If your RV doesn’t have a motor, a leak from your RV black tank is probably one of the top two concerns. A leak from our RV black tank is our biggest problem in seven years of full-time RVing.
I usually fix most of my RV problems myself. I’ve been a do-it-yourself RVer since day one. There is not much I can’t fix. I don’t want any problems, especially big problems like this one. Replacing the RV black tank with a new one is one job best left to the professionals. I don’t want to be that professional. You don’t want to be that professional.
All fixed, end of story
Just in case this isn’t your kind of story, it is fixed, and when I am done with the do-it-yourself part of the repair, now my RV will be better than ever. I promise. Tiffin made me a good RV; I can make it better.
I have also included an optional but critical sprayer system in my diagram. This system allows you to add water to help the remaining solids reach the dump station. Some RVs don’t have sprayers. If your RV doesn’t have a sprayer, get one.
Some dump stations don’t have water to attach to your sprayer hose. Lack of water at a dump station is common but isn’t something you can control– except to go somewhere else.
A leak from the top of our black tank
A leak from the bottom of your RV black tank is easy to identify. It is immediately obvious and the very worst kind of leak you could have. If you have a leak from the bottom of your RV black tank, then it should be apparent that you can no longer use the toilet.
Thankfully, we didn’t have a leak from the bottom of our RV black tank. Instead, we had a leak from the top of our RV black tank. This is a large concern but not nearly as critical as a leak from the bottom of a black tank. Our leak wasn’t immediate; it only happened when the RV black tank was almost full. What was the source, and even more confusing, how would we fix it?
How do you know you have a leak from your RV black tank?
The answer to this question is obvious. There is nothing subtle about a leak from your RV’s black tank. To be sure of the leak’s location, you must witness it or, at minimum, a wet spot. The leak from our black tank presented itself after we had been camping in the same location for a week.
Our black tank was almost full as we drove to our next campsite. During the drive, we first experienced the unmistakable smell, and before we set up camp, we stopped at the dump station to dump the tanks. That is when I saw the brown puddle at the bottom of our wet bay.
That smell
When we first smelled that smell (Tami was driving), I went into the bathroom and opened the vent. I turned on the fan to bring air off the roof and blow it into the bathroom, thus hoping to force air out of the bathroom and keep the odor outside the RV. Blowing air into the bathroom from off the roof was amazingly effective.
After we got to the dump station, I found the brown puddle. I immediately started cleaning the puddle with the hose. Eventually, I got all the evidence down the drain. When Tami walked up, I almost finished rinsing everything down the drain. Thankfully, this dump station had a good water source.
Brown puddle
This brown puddle, however, wasn’t the leak’s location; it was the result of the leak. This was our one and only brown puddle because we never allowed our RV black tank to fill even halfway again (until it was repaired). I quickly concluded that our leak wasn’t coming from the bottom of the RV black tank, but rather, it was higher on the tank. It wasn’t from the exit or dump valve because the dump valve is low on the black tank. So, my RV black tank leak was coming either from below the toilet or from a crack near or on the top of the tank.
The blue hose in this photo goes to the black tank sprayer. As you can see, my black tank is hidden behind this white cover, and you can’t see any part of it except for the locations next to the dump valve. With this white (beauty) cover installed, I would never actually see the source of the leak, so this cover had to be removed.
The only good thing about the leak from our RV black tank
The “good” thing about the leak from our RV black tank is that our leak is on the top of the black tank. It is not on the bottom of the RV black tank. A leak on the bottom of the RV black tank needs to be fixed immediately. A leak on the top of the black tank means it only leaks when the tank is full. What we have been doing is never filling the black tank. For us, this means that rather than being able to go seven or even ten days between dumping the black tank, we have been dumping every three days.
Removing the beauty cover
Removing this cover was a big chore, but it had to be done. Until now, I really didn’t know what was behind the white plastic cover. Getting the cover out of the way was a critical step for repairing my RV’s black tank and finding the leak. The first step to removing the beauty covers was to remove the fresh water fill hose and reel.
On the ceiling of this compartment, a white plastic sheet holds up the compartment light, which had to come out before the beauty cover. Even removing this plastic was painful. It is not going back in when I rebuild the wet bay.
On the beauty cover, seven pipes or valve handles penetrated the white fiberglass wall, and each had to be removed before the cover would come out. After these items were disconnected, I removed the screws holding the cover to the walls. The last obstacle was removing the bracing supporting the dump pipe and valve.
Here is what it looked like when I got the beauty cover out of the way.
The next photo is our wet bay after the wires were cleaned up and organized. I still have a mess of small pipes that need to be fixed, but I am making progress.
The problem with finding my leak
The problem with finding the leak in my RV black tank is that the frame rails for the RV are very close to the black tank. In the next photo, this is the only place you can see behind the frame rails above the RV black tank. The gap is too small for your head, but you can hold your cell phone over the top of the frame rails to get some pictures. Finding this leak was going to be difficult.
Finding the leak in our RV black tank
It was hard to find the leak in our RV black tank because, for the most part, you can’t see the RV black tank. The one thing we knew was that the leak wasn’t just behind the beauty cover. So, I removed the “door” on the passenger side of the RV to investigate from that side. I was pretty sure that it wasn’t coming from the passenger side of the RV because I found the brown puddle on the driver’s side at the bottom of the wet bay. Still, I have to look everywhere.
This is what our holding tanks look like from the passenger side of the RV.
The RV black tank also sits on top of the freshwater tank and the right side of the greywater tank. The white pipes are the overflow for the freshwater tank. The small white hose is the RV black tank sprayer hose. The wires above the RV black tank prevent seeing a leak from this side of the RV.
Calling RV repair shops
After I did all the easy things to find my leak, I started calling for professional help at RV repair facilities. The first place I called was in Las Vegas. They didn’t want my job because my RV was ten years old, and they insisted that they might not have parts available.
Several RV dealers (with repair facilities) in the San Bernadino area weren’t interested in accommodating our schedule. The first shop that I could schedule a repair with was in Yuma, so we made an appointment.
I really liked the Yuma repair shop and its owner, but after inspecting it, he said that he didn’t want the job because it would take too long, and there wasn’t any way he could get a quick fix so we could move back in. He was concerned with the location of the toilet drop into the RV black tank between the frame rails. I was concerned because I didn’t like the look of his dump station. Our RV would need a dump station to find the leak successfully.
So I made an appointment at a second repair shop. A week later, after they looked at it, they said they didn’t want the job. I wasted about a month waiting for appointments for RV repair shops that didn’t want to do the job. I am now starting to see a trend with RV repair shops. They are interested in quick, profitable repairs, not difficult repairs.
The RV Proctologist
A week later,, we made an appointment with an RV black tank specialist in Quartzite. We drove to Quartzite to get a well-respected RV sewer “expert” to work on it. He promised that he could not only identify the problem but fix it quickly. Dealing with RV sewer problems is his only focus. His name is Steve, and he calls himself and his company “The RV Proctologist.” I will tell you more about Steve later in this story.
We only came to Quartzite to get our RV black tank repaired. On arrival, while pulling into our parking spot, we had an engine problem. Fixing the engine problem had to wait while we addressed the RV black tank problem. If you don’t know about this story, here is a link. Is our RV falling apart?
We never had any problems before
I am very happy we didn’t have an RV black tank problem on our trip through Alaska and Canada. We may have had an RV black tank leak in Alaska and Canada, but we didn’t know we had a leak because we rarely traveled with anything except a little water in our RV black tank.
Our leak may have been related to the roads and potholes, but it was more likely related to the age of the RV and the total number of miles, not just the roads and potholes we found in Alaska and Canada. Since fixing our leak, I have learned it was a combination of incorrect and rushed manufacturing processes and vibrations, including potholes. Overall, age and miles caused the leak to happen when it did.
About black and grey water holding tanks
If you don’t know, the RV black tank is full of brown fluid from the toilet. The grey tank (associated with the sink and shower) is full of grey-colored water. Both are sewer water and gross. I wonder how it got the name black tank when the color of the contents is so obviously brown. How do I know it is brown? I have a clear section in my sewer hose to see when the color changes, indicating that we are done flushing the RV black tank into the sewer.
Last year, we had our RV black tank cleaned (inside, not outside) and reported on the cleaning in this story. What is in your RV Black Tank?
To find the leak, I needed to be in an RV park with a sewer and water hookup where I could try to induce a leak with clean(er) water. Before going to Yuma and Quartzite, I tried this procedure twice (without professional help): filling the tank until it read 100% on the gauge. I had purchased a snake camera so that I could put it into small holes and explore where the source of the leak might have been coming from.
The camera worked, but finding the leak didn’t work. I had never filled the tank to the level of the leak. The crack associated with our leak was at the top of our tank, and even though the fluid level was 100% on the gauge, the tank was not completely full.
Finding the leak myself didn’t work
I needed to fill the tank without putting any pressure on it. If you put pressure on the tank during testing, you could make a small crack bigger or even split the tank. Using the sprayer to fill the tank is a bad idea, and you could easily overpressurize the tank.
If you fill the tank with the sprayer hose with a bow on the top of the RV black tank (see the above diagram), fluid will never rise into the toilet stack. If the air vent works properly, the fluid will climb into the air vent pipe and the roof. If you flush the toilet with a column of water in the air vent pipe, water won’t go down through the toilet but instead will come up through the toilet. I recommend avoiding this issue by not filling your black tank with the sprayer hose.
If the air vent is not working, pressure from the sprayer could overpressurize the tank, causing a rupture.
The only way to safely fill your RV black tank is to allow water to pass the flush valve (through the toilet) and into the tank.
My first choice was not Quartzite or Yuma.
Our first choice to repair the black tank wasn’t Quartzite but Las Vegas back in November. (I am writing this in May.) The Las Vegas shop, however, wouldn’t fix anything on my RV because it was more than ten years old. They were “worried” about getting parts. It was just an excuse. No one wants to work on an RV black tank.
Not including my phone calls to San Bernadino, my second choice was while we were in Yuma. With plenty of lead time and lots of spare time to fix the problem, I scheduled our repair for Yuma. We even camped at the shop overnight, and when it came time to find the leak, the shop owner told me that he wouldn’t fix it. Since I couldn’t point at the hole, he wouldn’t repair it. If I had found the leak myself, maybe he would have helped me.
If I had come to Yuma in the summer (we are not going to Yuma in the summer),, he would have helped me. In January of the winter, he was overscheduled. I like the owner and the shop, and my evaluation is that they do good work even though they wouldn’t fix my RV. As far as I can find, this RV repair place doesn’t have a website or even a Facebook page.
My second choice was Yuma.
After the first shop in Yuma failed me, I made an appointment at another repair shop in Yuma to make the repairs. During the initial RV black tank inspection at the repair shop, while we were still in the parking lot, this shop also said they didn’t want to repair it. Fixing the RV black tank would be a multiple-day process, and they only scheduled us for a two-hour repair.
Previously, I had already told the service writer at this shop it would be a hard job, and if it were going to be easy, I would have fixed it myself. Like the RV salesman in the same office, he was trying to get me in the door.
Like the first place in Yuma that I liked, I will not mention the name of this shop either because I’m not too fond of the business. Within minutes of how they approached the repair, I could tell that I wouldn’t be happy. Don’t let a service writer (salesman) evaluate a repair. Get a technician. Preferably, get the technician who will do the work.
It wasn’t until the tech looked at it that they told me they wouldn’t work on it. So, even after visiting two different repair shops, we still had an RV black tank leak from an unknown source.
Not in Phoenix
We already exhausted possible RV black tank repair locations in Yuma. I made phone calls to repair locations along our route. The Phoenix shops didn’t want anything to do with an RV black tank. That is why we went to Quartzite, where we were hoping to get our RV black tank fixed.
The problem is that we can’t see the top of our RV black tank without removing it, and it is very difficult to remove. So, at this time, we still didn’t have a remedy for our RV black tank leak, but we were getting closer. I will save some of this frustrating story for later. It is going to be a large repair.
How about Quartzite
We only came to Quartzite because Steve, the RV Proctologist, assured me he could fix my RV black tank problem. His assurance of repair was the only reason we went to Quartzite. Unlike the last time we were in Quartzite, we didn’t come to the party or the RV show. Here are a couple of links to the stories about our previous visit. Why Quartzsite and Quartzsite, No, Maybe, Yes!!!
In the winter, being in Quartzite is fine. It is way better than having problems in northern British Columbia last fall. Here is a link to that story. 500 miles with an engine problem in remote Canada
The 2024 Quartzite RV Show was over
Quartzite has the largest gathering of RVers during the Quartzite RV show. Without the RV show and gathering, Quartzite would be another unknown location except for the intersection of Interstate 10 and US Highway 95. Overall, Quartzite is a good place for a truck stop. RVers go to Quartzite for the warm winter weather and a million acres of open flat desert for free camping.
Quartzite has two shows, the RV Show and the Rock Show, both in the last part of January. Perhaps half a million people visit Quartzite in winter, while less than 3000 residents remain in the summer.
Getting help with the RV black tank in Quartzite
As soon as the RV was parked, I started getting ready for the black tank repair. The leak was on top of the tank, but we didn’t know exactly where the leak was sourced. I tried to find the leak but failed. I failed mostly because I was down to two options, and neither one was appealing.
I already mentioned that I flushed and then filled the tank to full (on the gauge), and it didn’t leak. I could flush and fill the tank and drive the RV, but I was certain it would leak due to the water sloshing while we were driving. Doing that would only assure us that it leaked. I needed a location where the leak was coming from, not just that it leaked.
I needed an expert (Steve) who would know where to look while I filled the tank so that he could find the leak. I already mentioned that I wanted an expert who could find and repair the leak, and Steve assured me he could not only find the leak but also make the repairs while we stayed in the RV using the nearby restroom. He mentioned taking the tank to his shop and welding the plastic as potentially part of the repair. At this point, I was impressed that Steve knew what he was doing.
Getting ready to find the leak
To get ready, I needed to clean out the tank to the best of my ability. To do this, I would use the tank flush system built into the tank and remove any solids from inside the tank. I cover this story’s procedure for dumping and rinsing the holding tanks. This link goes directly to the story section associated with rinsing the RV black tank. Dumping and rinsing the holding tanks
Finding the leak in the RV black tank
After Steve (the RV Proctologist) arrived, just as I had done before, we filled the tank to 100% full (on the gauge) and looked for the leak. We couldn’t find the leak anywhere. The next step was to over-fill the tank. Overfilling the black tank is risky, and you want to do this very carefully to make sure that the leak doesn’t get bigger or rupture the tank. Even though we were overfilling the tanks with fresh, clear water, once it made a trip through the black tank, you couldn’t call it clean, or even remotely clean. The only way to overfill your black tank “safely” is through the toilet.
So I went inside to run water down the toilet, and Steve watched from the outside. I had to fill it until the water filled not only the black tank but also part of the four-inch pipe above the level of every fitting on top of the tank. Pouring water down from the top isn’t under pressure, and putting water under pressure into the black tank is a very unwise idea.
When the tank was truly full (and not just reading full on the gauge) the leak appeared, it was pouring out of the top of the tank on the passenger side of the flange that held the stack to the bottom of the toilet. Good thing I was filling the tank from the top down and using clear water to fill it. Water was pouring everywhere across the top of the black and grey tanks and then dripping down the outside of the freshwater tank, pooling in the wet bay. At least it was clear water and not brown water.
Since the water had nowhere to go except out of the hole, it was coming out of the hole as fast as I was putting it in. In hindsight, as soon as we found the leak, I should have opened the dump and let the water run down the sewer hose rather than allow it to continue to leak, but we were looking for other leaks and didn’t think of that.
Spin welding
A flange can be attached to the top of the black tank in one of about three different ways. The way my flange was attached to the top of my RV black tank is called spin or friction welding. Other methods would be mechanically attaching the flange (typically using bolts) or by using glue. Usually, mechanical attaching methods would use glue or sealant as a backup to the primary method.
The flange to the top of my RV black tank was spin-welded. The flange is attached to a fitting on a router rotating at a high RPM and touched to the plastic on the top of the tank. Friction between the two plastics causes the plastics to melt, creating a weld. when done correctly, the two different plastics become one piece of plastic. This connection is watertight when it is done correctly. My new replacement black tank also has a spin-welded flange, but during the repair, we also used glue over the top of the weld to ensure that even if the joint broke, the glue would act as a backup to the weld.
No fix in Quartzite
We found the leak in Quartzite, but that was as far as we got. I couldn’t fix the leak or even reach the flange, and neither could Steve. Without the major effort of removing our RV black tank, the repair was impossible in Quartzite. The only thing we accomplished was finding the leak.
Steve has an arrangement with another shop in Quartzite that he hoped would take over the repair and fix the RV black tank leak. Steve recommended removing the toilet and then cutting a hole in the floor under where the toilet sat big enough to reach the top of the RV black tank from inside the bathroom. Then, after repairing the RV black tank, rebuild the floor under the toilet. YGTBSM. If you don’t know the meaning of this acronym, look it up.
Steve didn’t want the job.
Is Steve going to fix it? Steve didn’t want the job; he said there was too much liability. I can understand why rebuilding the floor under the toilet would be a major repair. Steve’s reluctance to be further involved means that he doesn’t want the job because it is too complicated, and he doesn’t anticipate success. I knew some of the Tiffin RVs (including mine) had replaced the floor under the freshwater tank. If necessary, I would have replaced the floor under the fresh water tank, the fresh water tank, and the black tank before I cut a hole under the toilet.
If you want your RV black tank cleaned, I am willing to bet that Steve would do a good job. If you need your RV black tank removed and replaced, then perhaps find a better place. Don’t let anyone cut a huge hole under your toilet. Without Steve and his knowledge, I couldn’t have diagnosed and photographed the leak. I count this expense as a lesson. I won’t need his services again.
Visiting Steve’s partner RV shop
There are many RV repair places in Quartzite. In the winter, there are many broken RVs. In the winter, there are lots of RVs being repaired in Quartzite… but not my RV… not for my RV black tank. I did a repair while in Quartzite, but it didn’t involve my black tank or me. Steve told me to talk to James, the owner of one of the larger shops, about my repair.
So I went to his shop, and James wasn’t interested in repairing an RV black tank problem. James wasn’t even interested in discussing my problem or possible repair methods. Instead, he told me (via his service salesman) that he would send the job to Steve. Thanks for the help, James. I’m not going to put your link in the blog either. You are alone if you are in Quartzite and need an RV repair. Good luck finding someone.
Not a campground repair
It should be obvious by now that removing, repairing, and replacing an RV black tank, even if you know how, is not a repair you should attempt while in a campground. First, at a minimum, it involves all the work I have already done. You need to remove the toilet and RV black tank, get the necessary parts (including a new RV black tank), and then reassemble the entire RV black tank, pipes, valves, and toilet. While our tank was removed from the RV we got a hotel for the night.
We have a warranty
If we can find an RV repair shop that is willing to take the repair, then our warranty will cover the cost of the new RV black tank, including a full installation. At one point, I was nearly convinced we would have to travel an additional 1000 miles to the east (starting in Dallas) to find a repair shop willing to take the job. This is way better than having a problem in a traditional home. You can’t travel to get a repair in your house; it has to be fixed at your house.
Even though the warranty company wouldn’t authorize a repair without photographic evidence of the leak, they were unwilling to pay for the diagnosis. I am still irritated about this. In the end, the warranty company paid for the repair, including the cost of our stay in a hotel room, except for “shop” supplies and a new tank level sensor. The expensive part was the labor. I am still waiting for a check from the warranty company for my lodging… my opinion about the warranty company may change shortly if I don’t get a check covering our lodging.
It’s not a do-it-yourself project. Since I can’t make the repair at a campground and don’t have a shop, I would still have to find a location where I could make the repair. I needed professional help to fix our black tank leak.
Our repair
Our repair was performed in Tucson, and overall, it took nearly a month from our failed repair in Quartzite to our initial contact with the repair shop in Tucson to make the repair. Even though I showed them the photo of the leak and everything else, I still needed an inspection (where I did all the work) and an estimate from the warranty company. Between physical inspection and the start of work, we visited the solar eclipse near Dallas. If you missed the story, here is a link. Was the 2024 Total Solar Eclipse a Total Failure?
If we had a leak from the bottom of the RV black tank, it would have been a month, but for that month, we would have been sitting in a hotel room until the repair was made. I am very glad that we were able to continue our lives and travels while our RV was waiting to be repaired.
To be continued
I am not finished with my RV black tank story and the associated wet bay remodel, so I will return to the subject of the actual repair and remodel. This story is plenty long enough as it is. When I finish the story, I will insert a link here.
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Links
What is in your RV Black Tank?
500 miles with an engine problem in remote Canada
Dumping and rinsing the holding tanks
Was the 2024 Total Solar Eclipse a Total Failure?
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You were shaking your head when I asked you if you had everything fixed. Now I understand. Safe travels dear cousin for you and Tami.
TANSTAAFL and YGTBSM kinda go hand in hand. There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch…we both know the second acronym from past Navy days!
Oh my. That was a lot to deal with. Happy travels now!
Love all the info.
How frustrating! You are a patient man! I think I might have set it on fire!
OMG, what a nightmare! Tell me, will Red Bay work on your rig?
Several service centers in Red Bay could easily fix my RV. They know how it was put together. The factory service center might do a repair. The answer to this question seems to change from time to time due to workload.
Wow not a problem I would like to have. Fortunate that it was at the top of the tank. Safe travels.
Hi you two!
Good for you to express your frustration with the repair shops that refuse to do repairs!
I love the cover photo of you two without sunglasses. Tammi, you are the BEST at selfies! Mine stink.
BYTM. Sorry for the hard time getting this taken care of. Glad you did such a great job of documenting it. Looking forward to the conclusion!
What a story! But gotta have the toilet!
Scarry story. you stated, “our warranty will cover the cost of the new RV black tank including a full installation.” was this an after-market warranty you paid for, or is it the original Tiffan, still valid after over 10 years? Can you describe the warranty? Best wishes, looking forward to the rest of the story.
I have a older Tiffin like you. How/where did you get/take the picture of the flange?
The location of the flange will always be very close to the bottom of the toilet. On our RV it is nearly a direct drop from the toilet to the black tank.
The reason that our flange is so hard to photograph is that the toilet flange sits between the frame rails. So I had to reach above the frame rails with the camera and shoot photos blindly hoping for a good picture. Eventually, this worked.
On other RVs, the toilet is located close to an exterior wall. Then you would be able to see and work on the flange perhaps not even replacing the black tank. All you would have to do is remove the compartment panel next to the toilet.
OMG YGTBSM!!
Nightmare does describe it. Hugs and love!!!
arggghh
If you removed the toilet, couldn’t you then reach down into the tank to apply epoxy onto the crack from inside the tank?
When we removed the toilet we found that the stack was not attached to the tank so in this case there wasn’t really a crack in the tank to repair. What we could have done (maybe) is rebuild the stack, starting at the flange attachment to the tank.
What a problem. An interesting fact I learned when working on my toilet was that my bathroom sink drains into my black tank. I’m guessing the idea was more water was better than being too dry and how much would really be going down the bathroom sink. I also found that most shops are looking for fast jobs and not something that lingers on.
Looking forward to the final story.
The most expensive RVs don’t have a grey tank, instead all the waste water goes into a huge black tank. I think that this would be a much better design, it is an interesting point.